- From: al2048@xxxxxxx
- Date: 17 Jan 2007 22:50:59 -0800
Ed Smart said some very interesting stuff in a recent Larry King
The following link is the transcript:
From the transcript:
SMART: Absolutely. You know, Elizabeth was cabled there for two months
and the times that she did try to get away, she was recaptured and
said, "If you try that again, I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill
And those threats are very real. And you know, they, I believe, get to
a point where they just try to survive, as has been said. And that
survival is what ends up in the end bringing them back to us. And I'm
so grateful for it.
How many "times" did Elizabeth try to get away?
If Ed uses the word "times", then that means that she tried to get away
more than once.
So, Ed is saying that, more than once, she tried to get away, and
Mitchell recaptured her, and threatened her.
But, if Mitchell threatened her the first time she tried to get away,
and if Mitchell's threats were so powerful, then why did she try to run
away from Mitchell again? Remember, Ed said that she ran away more than
once. Ed used the word "times".
Keep giving interviews, Ed. The more you say, the more you lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm asking and I'm pleading with whoever has her that I would do anything to have her back in my arms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family distributed a sketch, and on a March day, he was recognized on a suburban Salt Lake street. With him, Elizabeth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's real. It's real.
ELIZABETH SMART, ABDUCTION SURVIVOR: I just hope that no child or anybody would ever have to go through what I went through because nobody deserves to go through that. It's just so -- it's horrible for people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Remaining with us is John Walsh, the host of "America's Most Wanted," fantastic guy and amazing guest who has been with us many times. Joining us in Salt Lake City, Utah is Ed Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart. Elizabeth was abducted, as you have seen.
In San Francisco is Candice DeLong, the former FBI profiler, also a member of the bureau's child abduction task force. And a little while in New York, Dr. Keith Ablow will join us.
John Walsh has given us his initial thoughts. Ed, what's your read on this story?
ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART: You know, it is so great to hear that two more were found. And I just hope that justice is served quickly. You know, we were always talking about rights and we are not talking about victims' rights. And I think that they deserve to have a lot. You know, Elizabeth said to me one time, she said, you know, dad, Brian took nine months from me and I'm not going to let him take anymore. And these two kids deserve to not have any more of their life taken from them.
KING: In your case, Ed, there will be no trial of that suspect, right?
SMART: Who knows? Who knows? It's ongoing now. They are going to the Supreme Court To fight, force medication. Who knows how long it's going to take? I don't know.
KING: Candice, are you surprised at this recovery?
CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Yes. Missing child cases rarely have a happy ending like this, let alone two happy endings in one incident. So it's really great. The cops really someone proud of themselves.
KING: Someone said today, if your child is taken and not found dead within a week or two and presumed to be still alive, you have a good shot.
DELONG: Well, I don't know that that we have real good statistics on that. We know a lot of children that are taken, unfortunately, are murdered within the first 24 to 48 hours. KING: Right.
DELONG: But I think the case of Elizabeth Smart and these two young boys today shows that there's really reason to never give up hope.
KING: Dr. Keith Ablow joins us, psychiatrist, best-selling author, host of "The Dr. Keith Ablow Show." What is your read?
KEITH ABLOW, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, my read here is that it is a tremendously happy ending. And such a surprise and I'm sure the entire nation is grateful for this result. There's a long journey ahead.
We hear this boy says he wants to go to McDonald's after being freed. But the truth of that is it's an example of the level of denial that Shawn needed to summon in order to survive in captivity. Your mind has to literally tell yourself that you're safe, that this person is your friend, the Stockholm Syndrome, in other words.
So now to rid yourself of that denial and get in contact with all of the rage and the shame and the helplessness and fear, it's a long journey, a gradual one. And, of course, we all wish him the best.
KING: What do you expect, John Walsh? What do you expect Shawn faces?
WALSH: Well, I tell you, you're talking to Ed Smart here and his beautiful wife Lois, who know what this is firsthand. And I think they set the gold standard. I know they never asked Elizabeth what happened during that time until she was ready. I think they have worked with her, and they have allowed her to become a beautiful young lady but they allowed her to fight back, too.
I think they set the standard. And I hope that Shawn Hornbeck's family and friends and I for sure hope the media understands that this boy has a lot of work ahead of him and that he absolutely -- absolutely had to comply with this creep -- alleged, let's say it right, Mr. Devlin is alleged.
Nobody's convicted him yet. He had to cope with all of this stuff just to survive. He had to make the choice, do I face a horrible death or I do what this person has asked me to do to keep myself alive? So there's going to be a lot of healing. It may be a lifelong journey for both boys. But I tell you what, Elizabeth Smart and her loving family are the gold standard for making a comeback.
KING: Ed, is that why in these cases they don't run away?
SMART: Absolutely. You know, Elizabeth was cabled there for two months and the times that she did try to get away, she was recaptured and said, "If you try that again, I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill your family."
And those threats are very real. And you know, they, I believe, get to a point where they just try to survive, as has been said. And that survival is what ends up in the end bringing them back to us. And I'm so grateful for it.
KING: Even Candice, with four years?
KING: A man goes to work and you're alone in the house.
DELONG: Oh, absolutely, Larry. There have been cases of adults being taken by someone and held captive for seven years. It happened right here in northern California. And if an adult can succumb to the effects of Stockholm Syndrome and the survival syndrome, you can understand how it would be so easy for a child.
And often times the offenders tell their victims terrible things, including convincing them that their own family sometimes sold them to the offender or their families are dead or were killed in an accident. They make the victim call them daddy. And years...
DELONG: ... the longer this goes on, years and years and years, the more difficult it is for the child to ever remember what it was like to be free and that maybe he would be safe if he escaped.
KING: We will take a break and come back and get Dr. Keith Ablow's thoughts on that right after this.
KING: Dr. Keith Ablow, what's your read on why they stay and also the taking of a second person?
ABLOW: Well, why they stay, I think we can think about a triad of factors. One is if you're abducted as an 11 year-old boy, your whole concept of safety is immediately shattered. You believe anything can happen and that this man who has taken you is 300 pounds, is all-powerful. You don't know whether he's going to kill you. The story he may tell you is that he knows your family, that he knows people in the community. He may kill you. He may kill them. You have a sense of, "Well, maybe I can't be returned safely."
Then another thing happens: the Stockholm Syndrome, where you say to yourself -- out of denial, you say, "Listen, if this person holds the keys to life or death for me day in and day out every moment of my life, that's a pretty good guy to be my ally." So your mind protects you from the horrible reality that this person can destroy you at any time by saying, "Yes, but he's my friend."
And then the third thing, we know this boy or we've heard that he screamed night after night for some period of time. There's another concept, learned helplessness. At a certain point, you know what? Your protests and everything else, when they fall on quote, unquote deaf ears you say to yourself, "This is my lot in life." And you say, "I have to accept it."
So that triad is a very powerful one. I think that explains why he stayed, certainly.
KING: The taking of a second boy?
ABLOW: Well, I think the horrible reality is that if it is proven that this is a pedophile, Michael Devlin, then it may be that Shawn had grown to an age where he was no longer appealing to this man in the same way. You know, in an awful way, there's a comparison to be made between the most, you know, vigorous drinkers or alcoholics and pedophiles in the sense of the addiction. You know, drinkers will tell you, "I have my drink of choice." It's very specific. It's this drink in this glass at this time of day. Well, you know what, pedophiles in an awful way are a little bit like that. It might be a 10 year-old boy or 13 year-old boy, not a 15 year-old.
KING: John Walsh, Mr. Devlin is of course accused, and he will, as you say, get a fair trial. These kinds of people, they are not curable, right?
WALSH: I don't believe so. I think the vast body of the psychiatric community has come up with the same conclusion I have. Should we study them? Absolutely. Is it a predilection? Without a doubt, just as some people probably have a gene that determines whether their heterosexual or homosexual.
But it's against the law to have sex with children. It's against the law to kidnap children. I've profiled pedophiles for 20 years with rap sheets 20 pages long. They have a huge rate of recidivism. And until we figure out how to cure them, how to change their behavior, I think we have the right to know where they are and I think we have the right to tell our children that they're out there.
And I don't know why anybody is surprised. We see the "Dateline" stings all the times. I've been doing them for years. Who shows up? A rabbi, a Catholic priest, a special ed teacher. I don't know why we're surprised.
But the predilection is so strong, the compulsion is so strong that Mark Foley would risk his own whole entire career to text message 16 year-old boys. He knew it was illegal. He helped write the Adam Walsh Child Protection Bill. It's mind-boggling. It's a compulsion. But I think we have to accept the fact that these guys are out there and they're looking to hurt our kids.
KING: Ed, what do you think?
SMART: You know, I think that one of the important things for these kids is they've got to know that it is not their fault. You know, when we start talking about, "Why didn't you do this? Why didn't do you that?" I think it tends to put them in a mindset that, you know, they're at fault. And they absolutely are not at fault. And I think that for them to know that nobody has the right to do anything to them, to abduct them, to abuse them is so important. It's something that all children have to know. And I think that that will change the lives of children. And I think that these boys, especially, they need to know that it was not their fault. And they need to be given, you know, the time, the kindness, the consideration to re-secure the trust, to re-bond with their families and to -- and to move on with life. I hope that this comes to a quick trial and to a quick end because these boys do not deserve having to be dragged through this nightmare.
KING: Candice, is the law tough enough on the pedophile?
DELONG: I don't think so. Just look at how many paroled sex offenders, child molesters there are on parole, meaning not in prison anymore. We hear this over and over. You've had many, many shows where we're talking about someone -- not necessarily in tonight's case because we don't know about Devlin yet -- but we're talking about someone who harmed a child, who had a history of harming children.
However, I would like to point out that statistically the vast majority of child molesters do not get caught and they molest hundreds of children throughout their lifetime. If they ever get caught, people need to sit down and work with their children and talk to them and tell them how to handle this kind of thing, that if they are even kidnapped, tell them the offender will lie to them, tell them that you'll never stop looking for them, tell them never to stop trying to save themselves, and kind of help undo the harm that a potential kidnapper will try to do to them.
KING: Let's check in with Anderson Cooper. He'll host "A.C. 360" at the top of the hour.
Staying on the same topic, right?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Certainly, Larry. More on this incredible case in the discovery of Ben Ownby and Shawn Hornbeck. We're going to look into what's called Stockholm Syndrome, the psychological phenomenon when a captive sympathizes with their captor. Is that the reason why Shawn Hornbeck didn't try to escape when he had what seems like so many chances? So many questions to try to get some answers to tonight.
Plus, Shawn reportedly saw his age-enhanced pictures on bus stops, maybe even realizing it was himself. We'll look at the science of age enhancement, how investigators are able to so accurately portray a person's appearance years after they disappeared.
We'll have all that and more, Larry, on the top of the hour.
KING: That's "A.C. 360" 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific.
More from our panel when we come back. We'll hear from a mother whose child's been missing for six years. What's the case mean to her?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SINGING AND PLAYING GUITAR)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Our panel remains. There you see the picture of Christine -- of Heather Kullhorn. We meet her mother Christine Kullhorn. Her daughter Heather disappeared July 15, 1999 while babysitting in a St. Louis suburb. Again, we go back to a problem in Missouri.
What happened? What were the circumstances under which she left, Christine?
CHRISTINE KULLHORN, MOTHER OF MISSING DAUGHTER: She was supposedly helping friends of mine at the time babysit their baby. And the father said when he returned back home, Heather was gone and the baby was there. And they called me at 6:00 in the morning and told me they couldn't find Heather. And from that day on, nobody has seen or heard of her.
KING: How old was she?
KULLORN: Twelve years old.
KING: So she would now be how old?
KULLORN: She will be 20 in March.
KING: Twenty. Now that's -- she's an adult. You would think that this story today would give you some hope.
KULLORN: I never gave up hope, Mr. King, and I never will. I will always look for my daughter, and I believe in my heart and soul I will find her.
KING: Were there ever any leads?
KULLORN: A few here and there. But you know, sometimes people just talk just to get theirself recognized, and a lot of it is not true. Maybe some of it is. I'm not sure.
KING: But the police -- do you keep in touch with the police?
KULLORN: Oh, yes, I do. Yes, I do.
KING: Would you say that they are active on it?
KULLORN: Yes, my detective, Mike Brown (ph), is very active. He does the best he can with what he's got.
KING: Dr. Keith Ablow, since she's now 20, does that make it more difficult or less difficult?
ABLOW: Well, you know, as time goes by, it becomes more difficult, of course. And that's why we can empathize with this mother's pain, as all of us would. It does not get any easier for parents, I will tell you that.
From a law enforcement perspective, it becomes harder and harder, because after all, psychologically, it does not get easier for this young woman now to make herself known. It becomes sort of her life's story as years go by. This Stockholm syndrome that we've talked about takes hold more and more.
KING: John Walsh, though, assuming she's alive and been held by someone, wouldn't at age 20, would that have led you to think as an adult, easy to go away?
WALSH: Well, I don't know. First, I want to say to Christine's mom, I think she is a really courageous lady who has kept this case alive and who has been battling to keep her daughter's case somehow being solved.
I personally believe every case is different. I think that there are not just one individuals who know what happened to Christine -- what happened to Heather, I believe there are several individuals in that community absolutely know what happened to this lady and do not have the courage nor the conscience or the dignity or the moral values to come forward.
They can remain anonymous, but this is a very different case. And I want to say this on national television, because I know Christine's mother knows what I'm talking about. In this case, somebody knows. Several individuals know what happened to that girl, and they need to come forward. I mean that. This is a challenge. This is a challenge.
KULLORN: I agree with John Walsh very much.
KING: Ed Smart, what would you say to Christine?
SMART: You know, she is a terrific parent, and keeping that hope up and finding her someday is what I would pray and hope happens for her. You know, there are too many children out there that fall into this scenario, where, as John said, you know, people are afraid to come forward. They don't want to become involved. And it's a sad scenario, because we have so many people out there that do care, that want to help make a difference in families. And, you know, getting your life back instead of living this nightmare for so many years is important.
KING: It sure is. Thank you, Ed Smart, Candice DeLong and Dr. Keith Ablow. We will be calling of course on you, all of you again.
John Walsh will remain, and in our final segment, John has a message for parents about the biggest risk to their kids. We wish you the best, Christine.
We will be right back.
KING: For more information on missing children and what you can do in the effort to help find them, just log on to cnn.com/larryking.
And we also want to remind you that John Walsh is the co-founder of the Safe Side, the products to help teach kids how to make smart decisions in dangerous situations. I have them at home; they're terrific. Products include the DVD "The Safe Side: Internet Safety." You voiced some concern about so-called bus surfing by pedophiles. What is that?
WALSH: Well, I think this is a phenomenon that parents have to sit down with their kids and talk about, and parents have to be more vigilant. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and the Justice Department are now talking about this phenomenon, where pedophiles surf -- drive behind buses, looking for that special kid. Maybe it's a little girl, maybe in the case of accused kidnapper, this Devlin guy, that it's a pubescent boy or a young boy, and they wait for that kid, the bus to drop them off, and they wait for that kid to make that rural walk home. Lots of pedophiles think that rural areas, that people are unsophisticated, that cops are not readily available, which is true.
And I say to parents -- I know that people work, and you may be not be able to pick your kid up from the bus stop, but you've got to talk to it about children. Maybe kids walk home together. But this bus surfing is a way that these predators are getting these kids, and I think that's exactly what happened in Ben's case. He got off that bus. I think the accused kidnaper, Devlin, was surfing, driving behind that bus. He waited until the bus drove away, and he grabbed Ben.
KING: How do you prevent that?
WALSH: You talk to your kids. You talk to the bus drivers. You talk to other parents, say maybe I'm working, maybe you can pick my kid up. But please, I really believe we have to take a proactive stance. Some kids don't even have a chance, but some kids really -- we've seen 100,000 kids in the last four or five years because of proactive parents talking to them, avoid or get away from abductors. That's the good news. But knowledge is power, I always say that.
KING: John, we only have about 30 seconds. The incidents that occurred in Missouri, are they going to help find others?
WALSH: Oh, I really hope so. I think, you know, the quick work of those different police agencies, those two street local cops, the involvement of the state police and the FBI. I mean, this is encouraging. Times have changed. Twenty-five years ago, when Adam was missing, nobody knew what to do. Times have changed, but people have got to be proactive.
I think we are going to find more missing kids. I certainly pray it.
KING: Do you think we are winning the war against pedophiles or not?
WALSH: I don't think so. I don't think they stay in jail long enough. You covered the passage of the Adam Walsh child protection bill. The marshals have arrested 8,000 pedophiles since July that are in violation of their parole or probation. I think we have to get smarter and we have to get tougher, because they are out there hunting our kids. We saw it this last week. KING: Thanks, John, as always. Thanks for joining us.
WALSH: Thanks for having me, Larry.
KING: A great American. John Walsh, the host of "America's Most Wanted."